• Kissaki@programming.dev
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    9
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    edit-2
    6 days ago

    One of the principles of the Pythonic style is: simple is better than complex.

    But is it when you consider ambiguity and expressiveness too?

    len(mylist) tells me it’s definitely a list and not null or whatever. It also tells me the intent of whoever writes the code was checking length.

    If it requires a long article to explain, I’d certainly be hesitant to use and prefer. The question is, is it surprising or intuitive that the truthy becomes a length check. What do you want to express with your code. And who will read it, and what expectations and requirements do you want to require of them.

    For sequence type objects, such as lists, their truth value is False if they are empty.

    • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      9
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      5 days ago

      len(mylist) tells me it’s definitely a list and not null or whatever

      Do you know what else can tell you it’s a list? Type hinting.

      If I care about the distinction between None and an empty list, I’ll make separate checks. len(None) raises an exception, and most of the time that’s not what I want when checking whether there’s something in the list, so not x is generally preferred, especially when type hinting is used consistently enough to be reasonably sure I’m actually getting a list or None. If I get something else, that means things got really broken and they’ll likely get an exception alter (i.e. when doing anything list-like).

      For sequence type objects, such as lists, their truth value is False if they are empty.

      That’s generally exactly what I want. len(x) == 0 doesn’t tell you it’s a list, it just tells you it has __len__. So that could be a dict, list, or a number of other types that have a length, but aren’t lists.

      Don’t rely on checks like that to tell you what type a thing is.

    • Michal@programming.dev
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      5 days ago

      It’s just how pythonic code is written. All python developers know that not and bool can indicate that variable is either empty or null. They will also use the in operator and other python specific syntax.

    • Clay_pidgin@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      5 days ago

      foo = “potatoes!”

      len(foo)

      will give you the number of characters in the string. It’s not a surefire way to find a list at all!

      • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        5 days ago

        Same with dictionaries, iterators (will consume the iterator!), and anything else that has a length.

        I’ve actually had the string instead of list issue a number of times, because sometimes things get off and it’s hard to track down where things went wrong.

        For this reason, I think type hints are the way to go. Use them consistently w/ a static analysis tool like pyright and you’ll catch a lot of these issues before running into cryptic error messages.

  • Michal@programming.dev
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    5
    ·
    edit-2
    5 days ago

    Makes perfect sense. If you’re checking if a collection is empty you don’t need to know its exact size. Getting the size can be very inefficient in collections like linked lists or trees, if you have to follow all nodes. To check if it’s empty, all you need fo know if at least one item exists. If one does, there’s no point counting the rest.

    People who don’t understand the difference will probably not understand the difference between passing a list and passing an literator/generator to any() .

  • Kissaki@programming.dev
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    3
    ·
    6 days ago

    While the 2nd approach is not wrong, the first method is considered more Pythonic. Many people don’t agree, but I’ve already put forward my points in a previous article on that debate.

    Does Pythonic mean best practice in the python community or “good python”?

    If “many people don’t agree”, how can they claim it to be “pythonic”? Isn’t that contradictory?

    • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      edit-2
      5 days ago

      “Many” isn’t the same as “most,” though I don’t think there’s any way to know what “most” is.

      But here’s my reason for agreeing w/ the OP:

      • not x checks both None and emptiness, which is usually desired
      • len(x) == 0 will raise an exception if x is null
      • with type hinting, those should be the only two reasonable options

      It’s nice that it’s slightly faster, though performance has absolutely nothing to do w/ my preference, though it does have something to do with my preference for avoiding exceptions for non-exceptional cases.