FDO's conduct enforcement actions regarding Vaxry
drewdevault.com

Like y’all keep posting about it, praising it, giving it free advertisement, and what not.

But the dev is a fascist, the discord server is a fascist bar, and the project thus is fascist.

I’ve met people who were harassed, I browsed through now deleted messages of Vaxry using slurrs and more.

So I wonder is if the people who post constantly about it know and are complicit, or just don’t know and would act otherwise?

It gets tiring to see the project be given “fame” when I know the roots of the plants are founded in toxicity & abuse.

  • Charlxmagne@lemmy.world
    133·
    3 days ago

    This is akin to MAGA calling the pope marxist cuz he disagrees with them, some people are so one-dimensional its comical, you cant fight stupidity with stupidity, this is how actual fascists justify all of their extremist views, extremism just encourages extremism on the other side and gives those who are indoctrinated a bigger reason to support their indoctrinators. Tunnel vision is one crazy phenomenon 🤡

    Regardless of his views I’ll continue using it and supporting it. People will find anything good and look for a reason to ruin it grow tf up.

    • Charlxmagne@lemmy.world
      82·
      3 days ago

      American politics genuinely makes me lose braincells, backwards fucking country, MAGA or otherwise

  • charleey@lemmy.world
    1·
    2 days ago

    Nikola Tesla and Thomas Edison could have both had kids in their basement, would that stop me from using electricity absolutely fucking not, someone invents something I like, and is useful to me, I use it, I don’t fucking care what he thinks about anything, he could be best mates with fucking Kanye and make music about how he fucked his cousin, I’d still use it, it’s open source and useful, he works on it full time from what it seems and maintains it for himself and not you lot and your huge fucking egos who think everything revolves around you. He wanted to make something he’d find useful and decided to share it with the world.

    Would you stop using anything mass manufactured, just because Henry Ford, who did in fact have actual Nazi ideals, hated Jews and worker’s rights, invented the conveyor belt, and call anybody that uses mass manufactured items a fascist?

  • untakenusername@sh.itjust.works
    7113·
    5 days ago

    I don’t really care, the Lemmy devs also got some funky political opinions but I’m still here

    at the end of the day software is software and this stuff is all free and open source anyway

    • iltg@sh.itjust.works
      519·
      5 days ago

      lemmy is not a great comparison, there’s like 3 alternatives, there are tens if not more hyprland alternatives.

      i don’t think software is just software, why would this tech be exempt? pilot-less aircrafts is just tech, just like software, but we do remember that drones bomb people. supporting problematic developers is not “as bad” as building killing machines, but it’s the same principle: looking the other way when it’s convenient. we should aim to ostracize and isolate problematic devs, and it starts by not using their software, because doing so gives them clout and relevance

      • untakenusername@sh.itjust.works
        155·
        5 days ago

        I’d rather not get banned from this community by arguing that.

        At any rate that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying the political views don’t matter, the software does and its great

      • FreeBooteR69@lemmy.caEnglish
        113·
        5 days ago

        The software itself does not harm anyone, considering it is free software and nobody has to contribute money to use it, i don’t care. If you feel so outraged by it, fork the software and develop your own version. At least with free software you have that option, as opposed to proprietary software where you have no option.

        I’m not using Hyperland personally, but i’m not opposed to people using it.

  • pathief@lemmy.world
    5410·
    5 days ago

    Honestly I just stopped caring about developer’s personalities or political views. If you only use products made by nice guys who share your political views you won’t use anything in your life. Not even a phone.

    • iltg@sh.itjust.works
      13·
      3 days ago

      your argument is a bit extreme, it doesn’t need to only be software from nice folks, it just needs to not be software made by not nice folks

      apart from sqlite, i think everything is replaceable with a bit of compromise

      what things made by not nice folks are you locked into?

      • pathief@lemmy.worldEnglish
        41·
        3 days ago

        I agree with the sentiment of supporting nice folks, especially in the FOSS ecosystem.

        What OS are you going to use on your Smartphone if you remove software from Google and Apple? What VR headset are you going to use? What telecom are you going to use? Are you only going to shop in local food markets? Lemmy’s creators are also biggots, yet here we are…

        I financially support projects and people I like, but I use whatever software I enjoy using. FOSS, closed source, made by a nice guy, bad guy. If I feel my experience is good I’ll use that, if something better appears along the way I’ll move on. I don’t want to be a cop and background check the political views of whoever created all the software, hardware, services, movies, books, etc I use. I’d do nothing else with my life.

        • iltg@sh.itjust.works
          1·
          1 day ago

          what os are you going to use on your smartphone if you remove software from google and apple?

          aosp, fdroid, no gservices

          what VR headset

          not into vr so can’t say

          what telecom

          sadly, not a good one. i wish i had a choice, but this isn’t software

          are you only shopping in local food markets?

          sort of? i get fresh stuff from actual markets when i can and when i go for groceries i avoid ultra processed stuff from big multinationals, making sure of the provenance and the maker of the stuff i get, supermarkets also sell stuff from local producers

          lemmy creators are bigots

          eh, im still leeching off some other person hosting, im not going to host lemmy and im slowly making my own thing

          also can you provide examples? i heard it multiple times, I’m not contesting it, just kinda want to see myself, like with vaxry, and not only trust second hand accusations

          i don’t want to be a cop and background check

          no absolutely fine i don’t check all my software too, but when i hear a callout i dont hide behind “art and artist” mentality and move off the bigot’s stuff

          • pathief@lemmy.world
            1·
            1 day ago

            While aosp with microg is a step into the right direction, it’s not Google free. Most android code is made by Google and streamed to aosp.

            So you think people must only use software made by nice guys but you can use hardware, services, books, movies, etc. from whoever? What makes software so special?

            You’re not hosting a lemmy instance but here we adding content, and therefore value, to the platform. I don’t host hyprland either, I am leeching off the entire devs work for zero dollars. Does that make it okay now?

            I give more importance to qualities like open source, safety, privacy and performance other than who supports trump or not.

    • burghler@sh.itjust.works
      76·
      5 days ago

      All the VR users that care about this sort of thing better be aware of Oculus’ founder Palmer Luckey too. Their friends will be so sad when they stop showing up in VR chat

      • FauxLiving@lemmy.world
        18·
        5 days ago

        Well, I also have some bad news for the users of Apple, Amazon, Alphabet, Meta, Wal-Mart, Microsoft, Verizon, AT&T, Comcast, Target, FedEx, Dell, Lowe’s, General Electric, Proctor & Gamble, IBM, Nvidia, AMD, Cisco, Publix, Intel, HP, United Airlines, Nike, Oracle, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Dow Chemical Company, Best Buy, Cargill, Koch Industries, H-E-B, Love’s, JPMorgan Chase, Johnson & Johnson,

        …I could go on.

      • Euphoma@lemmy.mlEnglish
        6·
        4 days ago

        Uhh if they cared about that they wouldn’t be using a meta owned headset in the first place. Palmer luckey sold oculus to facebook a decade ago

        • burghler@sh.itjust.works
          1·
          4 days ago

          I’m just on the topic of people using tech from a morally compromised creator without being aware. Also idk about how transfering ownership absolves the sin. Even if it wasn’t meta that bought it but instead some ethical company it’s still riding on the shoulders of a giant (piece of shit).

          Don’t really get the down votes, maybe VR is a sore spot?

  • drspod@lemmy.ml
    444·
    5 days ago

    I thought this was going to be a new article or news, but it’s from April 9, 2024.

    I think this situation has been picked over and rehashed now to the point where anyone who was going to change their behaviour will have already done so. If there is no update on the situation then all I see is you dragging up drama from a year ago.

  • superkret@feddit.org
    4111·
    5 days ago

    Repeat after me:

    “You do not support a project or its dev in any way by just using the software you got for free.”

    In fact, unless you donate, advertize or contribute to the project, you’re a net drain on its resources.

    • Corngood@lemmy.ml
      161·
      5 days ago

      I don’t disagree exactly, but I’d argue that you’re contributing to the project even if you’re just reporting bugs or helping others with it on e.g. Lemmy.

      I could see avoiding all of that pragmatically in order to use some obscure, critical software, but not something you use every day and for which there are reasonable alternatives.

  • golden_zealot@lemmy.mlEnglish
    363·
    5 days ago

    It is a quandary.

    I would not support the project monetarily because I would not want to fund the primary persons behind it.

    But Hyprland is FOSS is it not? Someone could fork the project to resolve the issue you are describing.

    If this does not resolve the issue in your opinion (as you seem to have concerns with the “roots” of the project), and if we go with that logic, we should be just as opposed to using the modern “Jerry” gas can as it was a Nazi invention originally.

    Both good and evil people invent things - whether the thing that is invented is itself reflective or could be considered supportive of the inventors ideals varies. Nazi’s are terrible and I don’t want to support them, but at the same time I think that it is good and useful to be able to safely and effectively transport gas if needed, and I’m not so certain that function supports Nazi ideals. If I purchased the gas can from a Nazi, then it would, but nothing is being purchased in the case of Hyprland as far as I am aware.

    I don’t know a tonne about Hyprland as a thing however, so my decision on whether or not to use it may also vary.

    In short, you can have massive, entirely valid criticisms of the evil deeds of a person, but that does not necessarily fault everything they invent or touch, even if we would like it to. This is the crux of the Composition/Division logical fallacy if I am not mistaken, which is where we make an assumption that what is true about part of something must be applied to the rest of it without exception.

    In this instance, the inventor may be evil but it does not automatically mean that their inventions are inherently evil.

    If there are criticisms of Hyprland, the software itself - then it is a different matter.

  • Simon 𐕣he 🪨 Johnson@lemmy.ml
    263·
    5 days ago

    Vaxry is not a very smart guy. He originally got a wrist slap by FDO saying don’t do your toxic shit here. Then he followed it up by going postal on the FDO mailing list. Then he put up a blog post where he was like like “SJWs are coming for me”.

    https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-inclusiveActivists

    The entire argument is that you can’t make an exclusionary space for people (no definition of what that means) but you should be able to call them slurs. Who would want anything to do with him? He should have gone full tilt and made a list of slurs you should be allowed to say beyond just arguing for the R-slur. That would have really convinced people he’s not an extremely toxic right wing weirdo.

    https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity

    This was his non-apology where he says “lets be real” a lot which is a common way of just ignoring a criticism and then he follows it up with, I should have banned that user instead of doing what I did.

    Asking for professionalism in the OSS community is not a huge deal. It’s also quite literally not even about the code AFAIR Drew Devault is still taking Vaxry’s patches. He just doesn’t want him in the community starting shit with people.

    • setVeryLoud(true);@lemmy.ca
      283·
      5 days ago

      The “paradox of tolerance” is a concept I love to bring up time and time again.

      No tolerance for the intolerant, lest intolerants take over tolerant spaces and turn them intolerant.

  • TMP_NKcYUEoM7kXg4qYe@lemmy.world
    156·
    5 days ago

    You probably don’t care about my opinion, but one of the reason I don’t really care about this is that I only have the “drama” second hand from very unreliable sources. There is the Vaxry’s version of the story which cannot be trusted because that’s conflict of interest. Then there is Drew, who according to a Distrotube video is quite a bizzare person, who really enjoys to stir the drama and write these extremely misleading “hitpieces” on famous FOSS people. The issue is that to me Distrotube is not a credible source regarding this either because he’s got for me too schizo view of the world. He has a rifle collection, in case he has to fight for his country. (including a rifle, “that’s good for children”)

    So it’s just too foggy for me. Well I don’t promote Hyprland because I don’t care about my computer’s “looks” and because according to some (I think) Void dev, Hyprland code is crap. But that’s a different story. Anyways my point is that I can see why people can see it as not that bad.

    edit: adding sources for the Drew, Distrotube and Void stuff, in that order. Also the Drew video relies on indirect evidence but for me it’s fairly convincing.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=NLHIIVppdMw

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=nvQ-ZY460WQ

    https://reddit.com/r/voidlinux/comments/1eb3ivp/on_hyprland

    • patatahooligan@lemmy.world
      2·
      3 days ago

      You don’t have to trust Drew, though. Vaxry is pretty clear on his stance on the subject.

      if I run a discord server around cultivating tomatoes, I should not exclude people based on their political beliefs, unless they use my discord server to spread those views.

      which means even if they are literally adolf hitler, I shouldn’t care, as long as they don’t post about gassing people on my server

      that is inclusivity

      Source: https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-inclusiveActivists

      Note how this article is not where he first stated the above. This article is where he doubles down on the above statement in the face of criticism. In the rest of the article he presents nazism as an opinion people might have that you disagree with. He argues that his silent acceptance of nazis is the morally correct stance while inclusive communities are toxic actually.

      This means that it’s not just Drew or the FDO who are arguing that Vaxry’s complete lack of political stance is creating safe spaces for fascists. It’s Vaxry himself that explicitly states this is happening and that it’s intentional on his part.

      • TMP_NKcYUEoM7kXg4qYe@lemmy.world
        11·
        3 days ago

        unless they use my discord server to spread those views

        To me that’s not controversial at all and does not suggest in the slightest that he’s a fascist, National Socialist or whatever. And he isn’t creating “safe spaces” for these kind of people either. A safe space to me means a place where said people can express their (stupid) opinion freely, which Vaxry according to this statement does not support. Also I don’t have the exact quote but in a different episode of his blogpost saga he claimed that when some person was transphobic, said person was banned. So that would also be supporting evidence that he does not create safe spaces for bigots.

        If we’re talking strictly hypothetically, I’m a worse person than Vaxry because unlike me, he claims not to allow bigots to express their opinions in his dicksword server, while I am engaging in communication in a Lemmy community where being a fan of Mao or Stalin is allowed.

        In the rest of the article he presents nazism as an opinion people might have that you disagree with.

        He didn’t say anything about Nazism being an opinion you disagree with.

        He argues that his silent acceptance of nazis is the morally correct stance while inclusive communities are toxic actually.

        He does argue that his stance is morally correct but what you said is not his stance. I think the following quote implies the point he’s trying to make.

        It’s important to note that there are many people who disagree on topics like religion, economic systems, LGBT issues, geopolitics, and other. For whatever reasons they may, we still should not ostracize them as long as they can interact with the FOSS community in a respectful manner, without arguing about those issues in places not meant for such discussions.

        I think his point is that him disallowing ostracising of people creates communities that tolerate all kinds of people including say, LGBT people. The Nazis would be collateral damage of inclusiveness, I suppose. I’m naming specifically LGBT, since in a different quote he’s talking about illegal things in Hungary, which is famously a highly LGBT-discriminating country in the EU:

        I stand by my stance that even if you are something that the country I live in disagrees with, you still are free to use, contribute to, and be a part of the greater FOSS community.

        Also part of his point is that just because someone claims some other person is a bigot, does not mean that’s actually true. The former person could just be lying or otherwise twisting the truth, therefore it’s important to be inclusive:

        They will try and find things that you do outside of your proffessional persona, or often infer, guess, meddle with, or lie about what you say and stand for.

        • patatahooligan@lemmy.world
          1·
          2 days ago

          He didn’t say anything about Nazism being an opinion you disagree with.

          This is literally the only point the article makes and there’s no point even discussing it further if you’re too blind or dishonest to admit that.